The Black September War
Tuesday, April 02, 2002
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This page will contain mail expressing many sentiments. In some cases I will comment, in some not. Clearly neither I nor anyone else can agree with everything said here. Most of these messages stand for a dozen or more expressing more or less the same sentiments. I have not time fully to index these; my apologies.
THESE ARE NOT PUT UP IN ANY PARTICULAR ORDER. It is mostly as I receive them and they are not grouped by any design.
I am a Canadian. As many as one hundred of the dead were Canadians. If those Canadians had died here on our soil due to a terrorist attack, I know we'd sure as Hell ask Americans for all the help they could offer.
The WTC housed international corporations from around the world, and of course had its observation rooftops for tourists. Hundreds of the dead are office workers or tourists from Europe, Australia, Mexico, Japan, and around the world.
This wasn't merely an attack against the USA; it was an attack against all of humanity and civilization.
I read someone asking how many of us would actually be willing to die over this. I have young nieces and nephews, and I want them to be able to get on a plane without having to worry about being murdered. My answer to that question is a very reluctant 'yes'.
- Bruce Clarke
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Jerry,
I know you are getting tons of mail, but one thing I
haven't heard
discussed is the advanced military programs in countried like North Korea,
Iran, Pakistan, etc. I think its time we were taking an offensive approach.
Take out these programs that will eventually threaten and kill the civilized
world.
The way I think of this is that the barbarians are at
the gates of
civilization, and if we do not crush them now they will burn it all down and
we will have to start all over.
Another note, Prime Minister Netanyahu is reporting
that Arafat is
threatening reporters to make them not show pictures of Palastinian
demonstrators carrying pro-Bin Laden posters.
Brian
--
brianlane.com | nexuscomputing.com | libertynews.org | guetech.org
====
RE: your opinion piece http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,551086,00.html
I am an American who has spent the last day looking at international opinion of the tragedy. It has been very enlightening.
Your opinion piece was very interesting. While I agree that many of our foreign policy blunders have led to this (I supported the Arabs over Israel), these policy blunders were made because of our entangling alliances with Europe. The breathless attacks on our policies to the exclusion of the fact that most were made to keep Europe free from Soviet hegemony is the height of a double standard.
I, like our forefathers, wanted nothing less than isolation and to live our lives in peace. What arrogance from the rest of the world that a "chastened" America should let Europe lead us around. You guys have a hell of a track record. 2M Congolese have died. Let's see, that was a Belgian colony, no? Just why the hell should the U.S. go there? Out of the goodness of our hearts? And which part of our military should go? The Korean guard, the defenders of Japan, Europe? I believe that the Belgians, if anyone, have that responsibility. You brits are doing a hell of a job in Zimbabwe, btw.
For 70 years we fought the Cold War, almost alone for some of it. I must commend the British and Canadians for sticking with us, though. The French told us to go home. The Germans don't particularly care for us (understandable). Yet, when we decide to go home, everyone says we can't disengage. We must help in the Balkans. We must use our fighters and our troops to do what the Europeans didn't have the balls to do by themselves, NATO be damned. We're told that we can't lead, just follow the Europeans and put our troops where the Europeans tell us to. "Go there, kill those people, go here, just sit on your hands. You Americans are like children, we know better because we have been killing each other and committing genocide for millenia." For sure.
Regardless of the above rant, I fear the American course of action was decided long before this event. Many in our country have fought what we feel was the move to Empire from Republic. The Republican cause has been lost. The Empire will be established now. Colin Powell has already requested Romanesque "Pledge of Friendship" vows. The Grant of Imperium has been made in Congress.
Our nation is a nation of laws, it was founded on that premise. When we encounter lawlessness, not necessarily lawbreakers, we must make an example of them. To do otherwise would encourage further lawlessness and erode our foundation. That is the American way of thinking. DeTocqueville would understand.
The Hashashim have risen anew. The Mongols destroyed the suicide assassins of their day. It is the American Empire's turn. There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Not the least of which will be in America. This war will not be won this year, or next, or probably in the next 10, but it will be won. The casualties will probably include the American Republic. For that, Europe should quake.
Jon Fitch The Battle Hymn has been sung.
Salt the Earth. Carthago delende est.
Mourn the Republic.
====
Hello Jerry-
I'm not an eloquent writer, but this person Tamim Ansary seem to understand what is really needed to stop this brand of terrorism; the price is very, very high. I hope you can help make his voice heard more widely. Pakistan might cooperate, and perhaps the CoDominion could move in from the north, but I fear he has identified the true magnitude of the problem.
Doug Jones, Rocket Plumber ....
I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."
And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.
I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.
Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.
We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.
New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.
So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout.
It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.
And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
Tamim Ansary
I have posted a key extract from this in another place.
====
Jerry, thought I'd try my thoughts here first.
What is it that makes 7000(?) dead americans so much more newsworthy than 29000 dead children in the LDN (Least Developed Nations)?
This many kids die _every _ _day_ from preventable hunger. That's the equivalent of 70 jumbos crashing each and every day, 365 days a year.
Is it that these kids aren't americans? Or not westerneres? Or not lucky enough to live in a democracy?
My answer is that we think that our lives are worth *far* more than theirs because they have somehow allowed themselves to born into less successful societies. For this mistake, they are punished by being ignored.
Yet it is clear, from my experience and understanding of the way we in the West do business with the LDNs , that little of our kimdeness and empathy reaches the poorest - the desperate parents of these children. In fact much of what we do contributes to their plight - the bilateral corruption, the connivance of our banks in these transfers of wealth (who do 'they' bank with?), the arms sales, the swingeing conditions we impose on them ( 'conditionality', 'structural adjustment','User Fees'), trade barriers, debt. These are some of *our* share of the space for these deaths. Yet no news - no indignation - no assault to our sense of decency.
Once we have 'eliminated' all terrorism ( that'll be the day) as our leaders promise, these child deaths will continue as before - unannounced, unmourned, no CNN wall-to-wall coverage. 70 Jumbos per day - indefinitely - ignored.
What about the possibility of eliminating global starvation ??? Imagine the global joy...
... and watch the ground on which the terrorists stand crumble away from under them.
Imagine a world where the recent Budget Appropriation of $40 billion had been devoted to ending hunger - and imagine how much more is respresented by the insurance losses, the money raised by private donation, the money offered by other governments? With this sort of money, and based on UNICEF estimates, we could totally eliminate the worst aspects of hunger and poverty - and save 29000 lives a day.
Justice? It will mean nothing to the perpetrators - many of whom chose willingly to die in advance, their colleagues are just waiting in line - glad to be martyrs to their cause. How can you exact justice from people who will eagerly pull the executioner's switch?
How about justice for the world's children? Give them the choice of life or death and they will grab life with both hands. And a world without hunger will be fallow ground for fanatics.
The above comments are intended to fully respect the 7000 (?) americans and 200,000 children who died this week.
Peter peter@moving.cix.co.uk
The short answer is that we can't do everything. We did not cause the slaughter in Ruanda, and while forcing the Republic of South Africa and the Nation of Zimbabwe to reconstruct themselves into different kinds of states was largely our doing, our intentions there were good. The results may not be what we want: are we then responsible for intervening? Should Britain go back into Kenya and Uganda and Zimbabwe, and we into South Africa, to impose better governed states than they have? Nigeria? Chad? Sudan?
This was an attack on the United States. That imposes an obligation on us that, I put it to you, events in Zimbabwe or Nigeria do not.
The Price of unrestricted flow of capital has ALWAYS been unrestricted flow of blood. When we went to war against China in the 19th centuary because of their unjust refusal to allow our trade in Opium grown in our Indian colonies, we lost a lot of men, but after a few thousand anti-capitalists had been exterminated the Chinese government surrendered and we grew richer.
Tuesday's hit was just a little collateral damage in Capitalisms rightous struggle to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. Get used to it.
Osama Bin Laden's very measured response to the launching of four cruise missiles against him a couple of years ago shows that he understands fully the use of escalation in a military campaign. He didnt use the anthrax or the plutonium. That can wait for round two. You just lost the first round.
And as the third generation of children to be born in the palestinian refugee camps awoke on wednesday morning to the sound of F-14s overhead, a gift from the American people to the Isreali air force, a young boy wipes the tears of joy from last night's party from his face. At last the Americans understand that we are war! They have fought us for 50 years and hardly noticed till now! But there will be no escape from here the way a poor American boy might escape the grinding poverty by becoming a boxer, he has no gloves, no shoes, there is no gym, his parents dont even own the tent they were born in. Perhaps though, just perhaps, there might be a way out. Maybe he could learn to fly a 747.
When George Bush declares war against the dispossesed, as he surely will, he must kill that young boy and his pregnant mother to secure victory.
If instead he declares war against dispossesion itself, then the whole world wins, and those horrible deaths will have a TRUE memorial, not those obscene suggestions you have made.
I have always thought that America was, at heart, a Christian country. I pray that each American asks themselves which war would Jesus have us fight.
David Kelly [redleb@btinternet.com]
Speaking for myself, I would prefer a different scenario.
Dear Dr. Pournelle;
With all the mail you've been getting on the subject you probably won't even have time to read this. I'm writing it to exorcise my fears, but if you want to use any of it feel free to do so.
I can say nothing that can lessen, or is adequate to, the agony of this great and terrifying moment in history. As has become obvious, it has brought out extraordinary courage and nobility, and unbelievable crassness and venality, from all over the planet. As so many of your correspondents do, I looked for a clever little quote to preface my letter with, and decided to loot the Gettysburg address. However, when I looked at the last part of it I broke down and cried, I guess with frustration, for what seems to be on the verge of extinction. Here is the full text:
**************************************************************************
Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 19, 1863 The Gettysburg Address
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us --that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion-- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth. ********************************************************************************
I work as an English teacher in Korea, but since Tuesday I have spent most of my time surfing the Net, reading articles, trying, not to understand it, but to get some sense of what you Americans were going to do, if anything. I understand it well enough-Islam is a warrior religion which teaches the importance of martyrdom in a holy cause, so suicide bombers are all too easy to understand. No, what I was looking for was some sign that you were going to react with something better than Clintonian paralysis (do think you can hang that man for treason?). Now that seems to be coming true, and the sick despair that froze me on Thursday has lifted. Americans seem to be talking about the problem maturely, and this gives me even greater hope that something healthy will emerge from the ashes of the World Trade Center. Nevertheless I'd like to add my voice to the small chorus which mourns the willfully vulnerable Republic. How many people have thought it through? Imperial security will eventually require proconsuls and procurators to tell other nations who may and may not lead them. You will have to force nations to seek your permission for a party to run in an election. Technology, traditionally an unseater of the powerful, will have to be reined in to minimize the democratizing effects of computer electronics (Poul Anderson had some of the grimmer visions of American Empire, 'Sam Hall', for example). Other things will probably disappear, never to return. What about space travel? Will it be in the Empire's best interest to allow people to go Somewhere Else? Will different versions of history (not revisions but different points of view) become subversive? Probably not with the current generations in charge but what about the ones to come? Raised with the satisfaction of Empire will they value freedom? I can already feel doors closing in my face. I'm sorry if this is beginning to sound anti-American. It isn't; I truly admire you, your character and your sense of purpose, but foresight isn't one of your strong points. The Imperium will probably be the kindest Empire the world has yet seen, but "...better fifty years of Europe than a cycle of Cathay."
I'll close now; I have lessons to plan. Being too old to enlist for a soldier and a foreigner to boot I can only watch impotently as you rush to protect youselves. But for what it's worth my heart is with you.
Jeremy Beckett Montreal, Quebec, Kimpo-Shi, South Korea
Good points, and I wish I had time to respond to all. Thank you.
Dr. Pournelle,
Braxton Cook's poinant message echoes my own sentiments. I just turned 37, and so have enjoyed a wealthy and pain-free existance bought for me with the blood and suffering of others. Having read the occasional book, however, I have some intellectual idea of the horrors that await our young men should we carry the war to Afghanistan. At the same time, I understand how fragile our own infrastructure (required for our wealthy and pain-free existance) really is. It is perfectly plain that we must strike a sufficiently destructive blow against our antagonists that those who would follow in their footsteps are discouraged or killed. If we do not, they will continue to bring the war to us -- to soccer moms at Kroger's, to PTA members, even to socialist, pacifist academics (dare I say "wankers") who have _not_ read the occasional book.
The optimal response will destroy enough of our enemies that the remaining ones get message, while minimizing the destruction of our own best and brightest. I don't know the details of the optimal response. Perhaps Paul Hardy will be kind enough to provide them to us.
I leave you with two relevant quotes (or at least paraphrases)...
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
"A good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan executed too late."
James Utt
We can agree on both quoted points.
Dear Jerry, I generally don't mention my job (although one of my signatures has it all on it). I'm an academic psychiatrist, working in the poorer part of Auckland. A fair number of my more sensitive patients have needed extra counselling this week: and the team I work with have all been in shock. Well, is's Saturday, and we have survived so far... the hardest thing was trying to explain to my 6 year old why this could happen.
Today I was reading your site: re the response of an empire. Interesting: New Zealand Battle honours include Jerusalem and Damascus... my nation has sacrificed its young men for King and Empire and the feeling here is that we would again. It's almost instinctive.
However, this kind of war is dirty. I can think of twocampaigns a conventional army won against terrorists: the Boer warand the Malayan emergency. Both incarcerated civilians in concentration camps and killed anyone outside them. In both campaigns, atrocities were SOP.
Isolation and protection is the way of the republic: I would warn those who are against this that the damage to the society from the behaviour they will be forced to use may be greater than the terrorism itself.
Chris Gale -- Christopher Gale kiwidoc@internet.co.nz c.gale@auckland.ac.nz czgale@middlemore.co.nz
It is always well to consider the costs of a course of action. I seem to be despised by many who don't, whether the action is nukes or nothing...
I have been a reader and admirer of yours for years; even before the Internet or PCs. I have been some of the best commentary of the recent attacks at your sight. I saw your rather dismissive tone regarding Harry Browne's opinion. I can not agree with him completely. But he does make some points that are worth keeping in mind. War is the health of the state. Incidents such as this are used to expand government power and restrict our freedom. I agree with you that we ought to do something along the lines you advocate. But at the same time we must be skeptical of encroachments on our liberty in the name of punishing terrorists. I have worked for the better part of twenty years in the area of lower Manhattan just destroyed. A part of me would like to see a B52 drop a load of porkchops or FAEs (I can't decide which) on Mecca. But to be rational we have to remember that the people dancing in celebration have been educated(brainwashed?) in schools controlled by their leadership and exposed primarily if not entirely to media controlled by the same people. There is also a lot of old fashioned envy. To be fair, we have not been an honest broker in dealing with Israel and the Palestinians and this is a good part of the reason that we are resented by many people there (even as they apply for a visa to come here). Some say this is as it should be as Israel is our friend and only real democracy in the middle east. But we must remember that states don't have friends only sometimes common interests. Their government is as representative of the local population as the apartheid South African government was. As for Israel being our friend, I remember the Liberty http://www.coldwar.org/articles/60s/uss_liberty.php3. This being said, all terrorists and the people that run the states that support them in any way must be crushed. Bounties and letters of marque are an excellent addition to whatever our military itself does. I am reminded of Lazarus Long being pulled against his better judgement into WWI.
I didn't mean to be quite so dismissive of Browne.
Sunday, September 16, 2001
Please click this link below for an AWESOME drawing of Uncle Sam and the World Trade Centers. Please fight Terrorism to the FULLEST EXTENT POSSIBLE. Please EVICT all the known terrorist within the USA as of today and don't let anyone similar back in ever! Please enhance the cockpit doors on place so people can't in and please put trained security personnel on each aircraft to avoid this ever happening again!!!Please destroy all these terrorists buildings world wide before they destroy ours!!! Thank You a concerned citizen of our great United States of America, Please pass along this drawing below. Thank You, Joe S click here: http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/attack/attackgifs11/kurtz.gif
===
Death of a Sikh gas-station proprietor in Arizona, http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/breaking/0916shooting16.html . Maybe a robbery, maybe not. Americans always did combine lynch-mob tendencies with a willful ignorance of other cultures.
The lynch fever has got to stop. If they don't care about the rule of law, they might reflect on this: we need India on our side, we need certain Muslim nations on our side, and lynching their émigrés will hurt the war effort.
I hadn't noticed anyone lynching anyone in Studio City. There was disapproval and subsequent boycott of a gas station that displayed Iranian flag and raised prices, but I think that has been forgotten now. I can't do much about Arizona, but I suspect Arizonans can take care of themselves.
====
Subject: What is to be done [a monument]
I liked it, and the ideas. Any issues if I reposted it?
Below, my own feelings on the more overall subject.
Understanding.....
What I understand is that we are once again facing an enemy who hates us simply because we exist. No other reason. We are hated because we represent values that if accepted by their own people will cause unrest in their lands and eventually remove them from power. Long term, we must cease to exist so that they can continue to exist.
Does this sound familiar to anyone? Anyone else remember Kruschev swearing to basically dance on our graves? Anyone remember the Cold War, a long term struggle against Communism? We HAVE fought a war like this before. We KNOW how to fight this war. All we need is to accept and understand that it is the Islamic Fundamentalist states we are at war with. The "terrorists" are regarded as freedom fighters in those states and they support them. They, both the terrorists and the states that support them, have vowed to destroy the United States and our allies. Why do we think that their vows are any less credible than the Soviet Unions, and why should we be any less willing to take them on?
Wake up! There is an enemy out there, an enemy that has self declared itself to be our enemy. An enemy that is clearly defined and presents a clear and present danger to the United States. Just as in the cold war our enemy are the countries that have sworn to be just that. Iraq, Iran, Lybia, Afghanistan etc, they are our enemies. Just as in the cold war, the groups in other countries, and our own, that support and act in their behalf are our enemies. Remember the terrorist groups that operated the US, West Germany etc during the cold war? Sounds like the same types of groups that now exist in Pakistan and many other countries.
We fight this war by fighting them on every level. Hot wars and cold, until they fall and their ideology makes them collapse under it's own weight and failures. These are very oppressive regimes, I don't think it will take as long as the last time we fought this kind of enemy.
Bill
===\
Im just a concerend citizen,, I belive that we should eliminate all who opposes the USA ! A totall anahilation is needed to show that we are the strongest , most powerfull country to survive ! A fear should be cast across any followers !! helpers !!! or any persons aiding in terrorisim !!!!!! We shall win this terrible fight , even if we must nuke them all to gain totall controll on the worl !!! I personally would send a small undercover team to all the countrys harboring terrorists and just kill them on sight !!!!!!! They are paraded around there cities like heros ! and we sit and watch it on tv. if we have the axcess to video tape these terrible men why can someone just hide a gun in a movie cam and kill the basterds!!!!! we can ,, we will ,,, and i think if the government doesnt we the people will !!!!!!!!!!!!!! this is a last ditch effort but i think it will show that we will not fall !!! i my self would love to be the one to pull the trigger on anyone who celebrated or helped in the terrorist ack that was so sadly brought upon our great country !!!!! thank you and god bless us all !
Ray Beal Jr.
====
Hello there Jerry;
All the responses and Projected responses I have seen rely on Brute force, either Conventional or Atomic of some variety.
it is true that nobody has applied the Hiroshima Lesson in the past 56 years. One of the reasons it worked on the Japanese is that they AS A CULTURE have a set of responses that allow them to Bow to overwhelming force. The Islamic Culture does not have that Cultural response... To ANYTHING except something they can attribute to the Will of God.
I think we are a bit short of miracles of that type.
There are some other solutions that might make a difference.
In Lucifer's Hammer, You used Poison Gas. I suspect your reasoning was something along the lines of, Better we survive than be eaten. As you said, this is WAR TO THE KNIFE, so other tactics are called for.
Tactic #1 Has a Historical basis. During the pacification of the Philippine Islands 1900-1914 the majority of the bloodiest attacks were carried out by Moros... An Islamic confederation of tribes who did not want their lifestyle of Dacoitery, Piracy and Slavery changed. They had MOKERS... People who would work themselves into a religious fever with dreams of ISLAMIC Paradise, and Literally Run AMOK, killing everyone within reach. So inspired were they that you not only had to kill him, you had to push him over. It was MOKERS that forced the U.S. Army to adopt the .45 Colts Automatic Pistol M-1911. What stopped them was the tactic of Wrapping one of these MOKERS (After you capture him and yes it was possible) in the skin of a freshly killed pig and hanging him in Public view. The touch of the Pig Pollutes a believer so badly that he/She must spend 5 days in a Mosque cleansing and praying... To die in such a state gives a direct path to the deepest part of Islamic Hell.
If we catch a TERRORIST, Wrap him in Pig Skin and hang him from the nearest Lamp Post, Preferably on CNN with Arabic Subtitles.
This sends a message any self respecting emperor would wish. I.e. MESS WITH AMERICA and we will Send you Directly to YOUR HELL!
Tactic #2
For countries that know things and don't cooperate? Modify Tanker planes to carry Sterilized Pig Urine, and let them know that We will make every dwelling Uninhabitable (to the religious). There are several modifications of this... Dipping bullets in Lard for example, Writing Anti-Terrorist messages on bombs in Bacon Grease, the opportunities are endless.
Some people say that this will offend the rest of ISLAM. I suspect not. From all reports a good portion of Islam is against the terrorists and wishes them in Hell as much as we do.
Hmmm, One might consider dressing all Target buildings with pictures of Pigs, but that would go a bit too far.
What I propose might look silly to a Westerner, However it is Deadly Serious and FRIGHTENING to a TRUE BELIEVER.
As you Said, This goes beyond Justice, I say it is a matter of Honor and Blood. If we are to win this, we must strike at them with tactics that strike fear into them at a CULTURAL level. Brute force won't do it.
With Respect,
Harry Reddington BBiBS
Interesting. Thanks. Incidentally this really is from Harry Reddington...
Dear Dr. Pournelle:
I just read you War Mail report. For the very first time in my life I can unequivically say advocate sicking the IRS on somebody. I have never wished this on my most bitter enemy before, but now, finally I can say it with a clear mind and heart. Forget the FBI, " sick the IRS on those bastards, they deserve no less."
John Wm. Zaccone, a former attorney with the Dept. of the Treasury.
You really hate them, don't you?
Jerry
Like millions of other Britons I have just spent some of this evening listening to the Last Night of the Proms, which is usually a great national celebration. Tonight it was another demonstration of the grief which we share with you. I think, as must everyone who lives or has loved ones in a big city, "none of us is safe." It could have been London - if the IRA had their way it *would* be London. It could have been Paris or Berlin. It could have Newcastle (my home) or any other concentration of people on the globe. We are all involved.
I have two sons of military age, so anyone calling for "war", grabs my attention. I am not a pacifist, and accept the hard fact that anyone who thinks that military force is sometimes necessary (as I do) has to accept that the bodies of young men may be the bodies of *my* young men. But like many others I do not want their lives, and those of their loved ones, to be risked senselessly.
This is what I most fear. In their massive anger the Americans may want revenge more than justice. President Bush's first broadcast, which I stayed up to hear, spoke of an attack on freedom and justice. I hope that the Americans will not complete that attack by their reaction to the atrocities of last week. I hear coming, in some of the responses, a campaign with a simple plan. "Find somebody we really hate and kill them. Call it revenge for the September massacres. If it turns out that they had nothing to do with, call it the fortune of war. But since we haven't got the right people, find someone else we hate, and kill them. Repeat until ..."
Here in England you will find a great may people who will support you, right or wrong. We lost many our own, as well. And when it comes down to it, we still think of the US as cousins. Because of this - as much as any of the formal treaties and obligations - we will stand by you, whatever. But please, for the sake of old ties as well as the lives of our young men and young women, and for the sake of American honour, which still - somehow - matters over here, remember that revenge does not have to be swift, and that justice binds the hurt and the angry as well as the proud and the strong.
Philippa Sutton
Philippa Sutton philippa@jesmond.co.uk
Thank you. Sincerely.
Dear Dr. Pournelle,
Having been a regular visitor to your site I wasn't planning on mailing you after Tuesdays tragedy however having read some of the assinine comments of some of my countrymen I felt obliged to.
What happened on Tuesday was unspeakable - and no matter what the mistakes made in US foreign policy there is no justification for this act.
I would like to say that the correspondent who called you a wanker was untypical but we have an oversupply of such useless twats (another UK swear word you may be unfamiliar with). We have already been bombarded with liberals warning us that any US reaction would mean that the US was equally responsible for these murders, our government funded TV stations show 'Question Time' a supposedly balanced opinion / panel show and pack it with left wing USophobes and islamic nutters and (some of) our newspapers continue in the same vein.
But please do not mistake this rubbish for how we feel as a nation - as usual (despite what the liberals keep trying to tell them) it appears the majority of our people stand with you.
I am sure that if this hits your site then some of my countrymen will object but then again their fathers said the same things on behalf of the USSR, and their grandfathers about the NSDAP. We have always had fools and fellow travellers by the score but just as you were there in WW1 & 2, we were with you in Korea, the Gulf and the recent snafu's in the Gulf, and we will be there in Kabul and (hopefully) Baghdad.
On your debate Republic vs Empire - an Empire is not all that bad, indeed perhaps it is the absence of one that believed in the rule of law for the last 50 years that necessitates your nation taking that path now.
I would however ask one thing - if this is truly an alliance to end the evil of terrorism can we have your assistance with our local sewer dwelling scum, the IRA and their ilk should they decide drug running is insufficiently profitable and they return to atrocity ? You may not be aware but timing a second attack shortly after an initial outrage to sucker in the emergency services is classic IRA.
Yours
John Fisher
And thank you also.
And now this
Hi Everyone,
At the request of our readers, Alien Abduction Experience and Research (AAER) brings you the latest news of alien abductions and UFO sightings around the world.
But first, here are a few comments on the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon which occurred on September 11, 2001. The terrorist attacks were an atrocity. Our hearts go out to the families and friends of those who were injured, lost, feared lost, or who will never be found. People never expect these kinds of horrors to happen. We like to think humans are incapable of such bad behavior. The United States military has an enormously difficult task. Not only are they expected to defend our planet against terroristic attacks by humans, but they are expected to defend our planet against potential alien conquest from space.
UFO sightings are increasing. George Ritter videotaped a huge dome-shaped UFO over his neighborhood in Findlay, Ohio. See this amazing photo at www.abduct.com.
Abductees continue to report being trained in alien languages or being shown messages or diagrams in alien symbols. Some abductees report seeing parts of the universe depicted as a hologram, which is a three-dimensional representation. See the symbols and readers' comments at www.abduct.com.
Abductee views of abductions and earth changes are discussed on the Alien Abduction Discussion Group. Join this group in their energetic debate over what the real purpose for alien visits is all about.
There is a lot of trauma associated with alien abductions. Talking to friends and relatives is usually not possible for many abductees. Read our new e-Book called "Healing the Hurt of Alien Abduction" to gain a rapid understanding of what alien abductions are all about. The e-Book is at www.abduct.com. Get personal help directly through "e-Therapy" services at the web site.
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If you would like to place an ad in this newsletter, please contact abductions@aol.com. If you have a question or comment about alien abductions, please write to us at abductions@aol.com. Items can be quoted from this announcement as long as the web site is referenced.
Marilyn Ruben
Alien Abduction Experience and Research
http://www.abduct.com/
I received nine copies of this all telling me I had
subscribed to it. Of course I had not., nor am I likely to know anyone who
did... But it seems to be a war reaction.
Dear Jerry:
CNN reported today that the Administration is trying to ascertain the total explosive force of a fully fueled Boeing 7*7 to see if it qualifies as a "weapon of mass destruction." One can only presume this tidbit to be useful if we want to finesse our doctrine of "no first use."
On the "Black September" page you state that nobody has come up with a very good plan for military action. I say again that the limited use of tactical nuclear weapons may be our best option, in some limited cases.
We know where many of Bin Laden's "training camps" are - and they are in the most rugged and inaccessible territory in the world (after the polar regions), protected by a regime totally hostile to our incursion. To send troops, properly supported, to destroy such bases would mean an expenditure of blood and treasure totally incommensurate with the achievable goal: the Russians tried for 10 years to occupy that land and failed. Conventional bombs or warheads, even "fuel-air" bombs, are basically useless against an enemy well dug into mountain caves as surely Bin Laden himself and other leaders would be (if they are still even in the area).
I do not advocate using air or ground burst nuclear weapons against population centers. But an EMP burst high above Kabul and a half dozen other Afghan cities would deliver a crippling, but non-lethal, blow to the military and civilian communities which support a government which in turn supports terrorism.
I don't know why we should send a single US soldier to die when our best weapons for the job could do almost all of the heavy lifting, at least at first. It's clear as crystal to me, at least, that Bin Laden would use nuclear weapons against the US if only he had them, and there are many reports that he is trying desperately to buy or steal some, as well as develop biological and chemical weapons on his own.
We shouldn't mess around with this guy anymore, nor should we send young Americans to die trying to take him out. You & I both know that there is an immense difference between strategic and tactical nuclear weapons; I've read reports that the Army has tested a shoulder mounted battlefield tactical device which is lethal only to an area little larger than a football stadium (from what very little I know development was halted because such a weapon could so easily fall into the wrong hands). But a small device, delivered by cruise missile, would have the limited local effect but complete destructive power, and the accuracy, to eliminate terrorist strongholds in even the most distant and harsh terrain.
What I don't know, and what perhaps you could explain, is the long-term ramifications of thus taking the gloves off. Perhaps the song is not worth the candle in ways I don't apprehend.
All the best--
Tim Loeb
----
>we know the places where they rejoiced and danced in the streets >in celebration of the falling of the towers. Those streets and >all their buildings should become monuments: not one stone >stands upon another. Level the rubble so that a troop of cavalry >could ride across where they stood and not one horse stumble. >Then
..build better buildings, give them the keys and leave. Knocking down houses is SOP over there; building them instead? They'd never expect it, and would have no stock response to it. And an end to stock responses is very important. Stock responses save the bother of thinking.
This will never happen.
Forrest
If the U.S. and other Western Nations are smart this is what should be done:
1) Set up a Special U.N. War Crimes Tribunal. The Tribunal would be populated by Muslims only. Get some clerics on it and folks from moderate Muslim nations. Also select Muslims from Western nations including the U.S., Canada, Britain, France, Germany, Turkey, etc. The reason for this is that according to the Koran only Muslims can judge other Muslims in a trial. Fine, this can be accommodated.
2) Say to all Muslim nations hosting terrorists that they must turn over said criminals to the Special U.N. War Crimes Tribunal. If this is refused multinational military forces, which would include significant Muslim participation, move in ground forces to forcibly retrieve the sheltered criminals.
3) All prisoners from Step 2 get tried by the Special U.N. War Crimes Tribunal. When the guilty are punished their punishment would be as outlined in the Koran. This would involve death and mutilation via rocks, swords, and other harsh measures. There is a benefit here as the pain and cruel-death factor is much higher than Western execution and punishment methods. We are multicultural, and we can learn from other cultures ;)
Viola - justice done and done in a fashion acceptable to Muslim folks. As the method has been "sensitive" to the Islamic faith it should limit future retaliation efforts more than if things were done by Western methods. This would reduce the criminal's martyr factor and sympathy in Islamic nations.
Pretty simple. If you like this idea forward it to your e-mail distribution list. Policy makers should follow it and if enough people like the idea it can be implemented!
Dan Langdon
Dear Dr Pournelle
I read on CNN and other news sources that 600+ Clerics have assembled in Afganistan to "discuss Bin Landens extradition".
I'm an ex-pat New Yorker, living in London for the past five years BUT WHAT THE HELL HAS HAPPENED TO AMERICAN RESOLVE WHILE I'VE BEEN GONE?
Why are we not targeting that Church picnic? I thought America was at war?!???? Thats what George Bush Jr. told me.
It seems they'd get that old time religion real fast if the Clerics knew their own asses were on the line for what this asshole did.
Take care
Dave Coker
PS - Check out http://you-suck.com/
Subject: Monuments to Terrorism
A very interesting concept.
Would you object to the British military flattening parts of American cities then salting the earth, where we find people who we can prove have backed IRA terrorists?
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea. Just where do you stop?
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Alexander Collins [alexandercollins@yahoo.com]
My first reaction is to say didn't the Brits try that in 1814? New Orleans is still waiting.
In a perfect world we would not need to think of these things. Until then, I guess my answer is, you are welcome to try. Where would you go? Boston and Manhattan?
(One of my correspondents points out this is an ill-considered reply. For a more considered answer to what is essentially the same letter, see mail.)
I intend to get back to writing, so here are several days mail; I do not intend to comment although I may feel compelled to do so.
====
Hi there -
Long time reader...
Looking at the attack from a distance, looking at it from at least my perspective, I think that there is a point not being made: it's not so much about us as it is much more about Islam.
We are the target: but the reactionary cults that include - but are **not** limited to - bin Laden and his ilk, as well as the clerics in Iran, are the ones desperately afraid and threatened. It's been said before: they fear McDonalds and CNN, Madonna and MTV more than they fear M-16s and cruise missiles. And they fear literacy and reason even more. What they so desperatly fear is losing their past, of having to face the future for the first time in their lives. Moderate Islam is not the problem, I think we all can agree on that. The sooner we realize that it is a fight for the heart and soul of Islam, for the future of the whole region, the better we can start fighting against the radical reactionaries and their legends of the past and legends of hate. Look at where these hate fanatics have grown: all in countries entering into modernization, all in countries where population pressures make change inevitable. The revolution in Iran was profoundly conservative, led by clerics furious at the Shah for even talking of dismantling their priviledges, and using masses of disenfranchised youths with no vision of the future and resentment at the lost of the past of their parents and grandparents.
And this means that the simmering problems of Islamic culture, of backward nations developing nuclear weapons at the cost of basc education for the masses, has to be addressed and dealt with. We are facing a massive problem here: not only are our intelligence resources measly, but the enemy has been at work engendering hatred at changes in the status quo since the 1960s and earlier. We've just been jolted into the middle of an undeclared religious war between reactionary cults on the one hand and enlightened religious clerics on the other hand. It's a conflict that has been going on for centuries, at least as old as Islam itself.
And we need to figure out how to depoliticize it. Until we do, we will see civil wars, massacres, genocide and those breaks in civilization known as terrorism. I don't know how to do this: but understanding your enemy is one of the first and fundamental rules of winning. So let's start the process!
John F. Opie
====
Interesting take on Flight 93- the men who saved the day there were, by definition, militia. Re-arming the appropriate people aloft will do more to promote safety than any amount of preflight chicken delays, body searches, and intrusive questioning.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-barnett091801.shtml
and also, a cogent plan for air security-
http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel091401.shtml
Food for thought.
-- Doug Jones, Rocket Plumber http://www.xcor.com
====
Dr. Pournelle:
One random thought, which I find in some way comforting:
I hope that when the heroes of flight 93 reached their long home, they were greeted by the Three Hundred, and Horatius as well. I think that would be a fitting salute.
Mark Thompson jomath@mctcnet.net
Leonidas went a marching to the hot gates by the sea...
Dear Dr. Pournelle, Salon.com has been its usual left-coast self, but today there was this story ( http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/09/19/ready/index.html ). It describes the Americans who think this has been Americas fault. "they're white, upper-middle-class college students -- they won't be the ones sent off to fight. They're lofty, Orange County-expatriate idealists. All they know how to do is rebel in the unoriginal mode of the neo-hippie faux revolutionary."
"There is sobbing of the strong
And a pall upon the land
But the people in their weeping
Bare the iron hand.
Beware the people weeping
When they bare the iron hand."
Herman Melville
The crowd I run with has several teenagers in it. No one is overtly scared, but there is a lot of anxiety. It seemed awfully familiar to me, but I couldn't place it. Then I remembered. When I was growing up they tested the air raid sirens on the second and fourth Wednesdays of the month. There was this constant low level anxiety when I was a kid in the Cold War, and it's back. Ah well, peace was nice while it lasted.
Kit Case kitcase@home.com
====
I seem to recall Eric Hoffer saying something about how you can tell what scares your enemy by observing what he uses to frighten you. If that's true, then we can assume that what frightens our adversaries most is commitment. The hijackers of those planes weren't refugee camp kids from Gaza with no prospects and no hope. They were educated men who had options and they sacrificed their lives to commit mass murder for their cause. Terrorist states and organizations don't believe that we don't have the technology and firepower to destroy them, but they do believe that we don't have the resolve to use our power and pay the price. The lesson we have taught them in the Gulf War, Kosovo, Somalia and countless other places is: We won't put American soldiers in harm's way, no matter what. Our enemies believe that they can defeat us by being willing to die. They believe that their commitment to their values is stronger than our commitment to ours. We can further assume that we cannot frighten our enemies by dropping bombs on them or by any other action we can take from a safe distance. If we are going to put an end to terrorist threats against us, we are going to have to send in ground troops somewhere and demonstrate a willingness to pay for justice with blood as well as treasure. We must show the world that we are still the people who stormed the beaches at Normandy. If not then anything we do, however destructive (nukes, for instance), will only generate more contempt for us in the minds of our enemies. We have spent the last two or three decades building a reputation as a boxer with awesome power who's nonetheless afraid to take a punch. Until we change that reputation, the attacks will only continue. The trouble is we built that reputation after Vietnam. Our leaders took us into a protracted war with no clear objective. Creating your monuments (or SOMETHING!) would be a clear, achievable objective after which we could get the hell out. It's going to have to be something like that.
Dean
Jerry:
Bryan Applegate has written a stunning article in the London Times entitled: "Why Do They Hate America?" To be blunt-- it's a MUST READ.
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/09/23/stiusausa01024.html
Mary L Wehmeier Diamond Bar, CA Tel: 909-860-2494 Fax: 530-325-6236 IM: MWehmeier *No pixels were killed in the creation of this mail.* *However some committed suicide at my strange use of grammar."*
===
From another source:
I don't actually see any first hand evidence here that Lebanese Christians actually cheered the atrocities, but who knows about that part of the world. Can we agree that root cause of all this is the general f***-upedness of the Muslim world and its resentment that other parts of the world have their acts together?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MIDEAST DISPATCH
Whooping It Up
In Beirut, even Christians celebrated the atrocity.
BY ELISABETTA BURBA
BEIRUT--Where were you on Sept. 11, when terrorists changed the world? I was at the National Museum here, enjoying the wonders of the ancient Phoenicians with my husband. This tour of past splendor only magnified the shock I received later when I heard the news and saw the reactions all around me. Walking downtown, I realized that the offspring of this great civilization were celebrating a terrorist outrage. And I am not talking about destitute people. Those who were cheering belonged to the elite of the Paris of Middle East: professionals wearing double-breasted suits, charming blond ladies, pretty teenagers in tailored jeans. Trying to find our bearings, my husband and I went into an American-style cafe in the Hamra district, near Rue Verdun, rated as one of the most expensive shopping streets in the world. Here the cognitive dissonance was immediate, and direct. The café's sophisticated clientele was celebrating, laughing, cheering and making jokes, as waiters served hamburgers and Diet Pepsi. Nobody looked shocked, or moved. They were excited, very excited.
[Continued in linked article]
There is a lot good in the essay by Dr Kern. However, I disagree with the following statement about Viet Nam. "American soldiers who marched to war cheered on by flag waving Americans in 1965 were reviled and spat upon less than three years later when they returned." [Essay quoted in full below.]
Our entry into the war was very gradual, with no patriotic send-off. The anti-war movement did not materialize in the late 1960s. There were protests against the U.S. role in the early 1950s (when we were supporting the French) and continuing throughout the war. These early protests were based on morality, not U.S. body bags. I agree, however, that the antiwar movement was relatively small until there was a large commitment of troops.
It is the second half of the statement that raises my hackles. I have read that there is no contemporary evidence that a single US serviceman was personally spat upon or reviled when they came back. Returning veterans often were key members of the anti-war movement. True, chants like "Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh. Ho Chi Minh is gonna win" were tremendously disrespectful to US soldiers. The 'spat upon' stories, however, started years after the war and were created by the media.
The Vietnamese people are much better off today than are the people in Afghanistan (although not well off by Asian standards). Note that unlike Viet Nam, we backed the winners in Afghanistan. And, while we backed many groups in Afghanistan (virtually guaranteeing a civil war) I have heard that we favored the Talaban over the others because they were supporting anti-Soviet activities in then Soviet republics with large Islamic populations. It is hard to have moral authority when you back despotic groups like we have in Viet Nam, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. In each case we backed one despot against another. In the first two cases, our actions represented short run tactics in a cold war against the Soviet Union. The latter action may have been based on our oil interests. We may have had good reason for what we did, but our actions hardly constituted a high moral calling.
We have to defend ourselves and I fully agree that our success will depend less on the sharpness of our weapons than on the sharpness of our investigations of financial transactions. However, it may take a sharp bayonet wielded by a skilled diplomatic hand to pry the lids off tightly sealed enemies and to divide them from their their sympathizers.
I have been looking around the web for Dr. Tony Kern, Lt Col, USAF (Ret) in hopes of responding directly. Does anyone know for sure that this is an actual person, and indeed, is the person who wrote the essay attributed to him?
regards jim
I have no data. I used to be "honorary faculty" at the USAF Academy but that was some time ago.
g